Unreleased Chinese Democracy Era Songs Definitive List & Information

[wasted]

Where does the State of Grace/Seven thing come from?

When I listen to State of Grace I can always hear parts of Oh My God in it musically. The part which starts with “When do you think you can tell me?
How long do you think I can wait?” Sounds very very similar to the refrain in oh my god which starts with “Ooh, if it opens your eyes.”

To my ear anyway….

I think people are interpreting state of grace as a religious thing that fits the title?

Axl is using similar voices on OMG and SOG. Slow parts then ranting.

Listening to the hip hop beats and effects it sounds like The General and Monsters. It has the same low slung grinding feel.
Plus Brains quote about the bridge and chorus fits. But is it a timeless ballad?

How many songs did Brain talk about?
If it's just General and Seven, then maybe Monsters is Seven. I guess if General and Monsters is one song. SOG could be Seven.

There's no sign of SOG on most track lists but then it pops up on Village sessions, but Seven is mentioned everywhere.
I'd expect Seven to be on a disc with The General.

But I'm not hearing Chopped up Ben-Hur anywhere. So maybe it's not SOG or Monsters or Circus. It's filed away with The General somewhere.

People talk about JFK or 9/11 as conspiracies but CD II is the only conspiracy that makes you go insane. Imagine if Oswald, Ruby and Dulles were all interchangeable tracks on an album and you didn't know who was who. And you come up with theories based on their actions.

 

[Bill Brasky]

https://www.reddit.com/r/GunsNRoses/comments/1jyytpn/chinese_democracy_sessions_1992_2007

It's reddit so it's not really trustworthy. But it's a quick condensed overview. The progression seems about right.

In Cuban Skies case seems believable it had a vocal because its on the CD2 list first track.

2003 - Multiple vocals recorded, some re-recorded, fixed even on some existing songs.

'The General' '7'

The album is ready for release.

32 tracks in existence. 28 finished; 4 without vocals yet.

'Chinese Democracy' 'Better' 'Street of Dreams' 'If The World' 'There Was a Time' 'Catcher In The Rye' 'Riad N' The Bedouins' 'Sorry' 'I.R.S.' 'Madagascar' 'This I Love' 'Prostitute'
'Oh My God' 'ABSURD' 'Going Down' 'Hard Skool' 'Perhaps' 'The General' 'Monsters' '7' 'Berlin 51' 'Cuban Skies' 'Perception Reality Life' 'Atlas Shrugged' 'Curly Shuffle' 'This Grave' 'Shackler's Revenge' [instrumental] 'Scraped' [instrumental] 'Going Down' 'Quick Song' [instrumental] 'Zodiac' [instrumental] 'Down By The Ocean'

I forget his username on mygnr and gnfnr but that's some zoomer who was way too enthusiastic about the Village leaks lol. Used to posts lists like that all the time... he had a few names but Cuban Skies Dummy might have been one? Because he was convinced Dummy became Cuban Skies. And that Seven was a mash up of Circus Maximus and D Tune, maybe 1-2 other songs, he used to send people his 'version' of it. If that's the same person, don't take his lists seriously.

The information is not reliable or factual at all.

The poster is Atlas. Very enthusiast fan but his post his list are not based on any factual evidence.

If you guys want a list to go by here's one from a guy who is trusted and accurate.

https://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/220883-guns-n-roses-related-studio-sessions-a-definitive-collection-of-available-info/

Zombux did a great job.

 

[Bill Brasky]

I don't take it seriously as fact but you can see the progression of the tracklists.

Dummy is almost the only option left for Cuban Skies from the tracks we know about.
Ides is Maximus.
SOG is Seven.

If Cuban Skies is from 98 it could change to Dummy on LL. It rules out Cuban Skies being Quick Song.

But why is it then back to Cuban Skies on the CD2 list?

Dummy at least has a spanish/cuban vibe. But imagining it as a song with a vocal is hard.

The Curly Shuffle which @Gordon Comstock could possibly provide some more information on is a option, It dates back earlier then the village sessions and was found by the guy who that had old gnr recodings that gnr managment collected.

I still think Quick Song could also fit Cuban Skies if the poster on the Hoffman forums is to be believed and Cuban Skies is a song about cigars it sounds right instrumentally.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Where does the State of Grace/Seven thing come from?

When I listen to State of Grace I can always hear parts of Oh My God in it musically. The part which starts with “When do you think you can tell me?
How long do you think I can wait?” Sounds very very similar to the refrain in oh my god which starts with “Ooh, if it opens your eyes.”

To my ear anyway….

What can I say?
Free will is blind today
The choice that you made
Is a not a road that I would take
To use and betray
Simple as a power play
Not far away
With tears that go unexplained now

Oh my love
Can it be?
I'm falling from your grace with me now
Oh more than ever
I still remember

They say
It's just a passing phase
No more like a game
Problems of the human race
Goes right to your brain
Caught down in a hidden place
With no sense of shame
The secrets there and you can't erase

Oh my love
Can it be?
I'm falling from your grace with me
Now more than ever
I still remember your name

When do you think you can tell me?
How long do you think I can wait?
Oh no I said
I thought I never said I was sorry
Now don't you fall on your face now with livin' with it
The storm is comin 'again
I, I sense the shiverin' down
You thought you had it, ah
But thought you had it figured it out
But you do not even care

How could it be?
You're falling from your grace with me

And now, now my love
I ask
I ask myself what I believin'
'Cause now more than ever I still remember your name

Sacraments of the Catholic Church - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Grace in Christianity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

@Borki @Lacerda
Thoughts ?

"free will is blind"

Jesus healed a blind man. We should keep in mind, that many stories in the bible have different layers of meaning. There are many types of blindness, physically and metaphorically. Both can be true in this case.

"not a road I would take"

Jesus adviced many times, to take the narrow path in life, not the wide one where all the fools walk. Following in the footsteps of jesus is a difficult and hard road. Not one many would take.

"betray"

obviously jesus was betrayed by his own disciple Judas. Even peter rejected him three times (but was nevertheless made the cornerstone of the church).

"not far away, with tears that go unexplained"

jesus is still within us, if we listen. He's crying because of all the evil in this world.

"I'm falling from your grace now"

as sinners, we fall from grace with jesus every day. But Jesus is loving us unconditionally, and he is forgiving.

"they say its just a passing phase, just a game"

you can view life as a phase on earth, where you have free will, with the option to chose the good path or the evil path.

"caught down in a hidden place, with no sense of shame. the secrets there you can't erase": jesus said many times, that no evil will stay hidden and everything will be revealed

"when do you think you can tell me, you do not even care etc..."

evokes sentiments of the book of job. People who believe in god, when facing hardship in life, tend to question god, asking him, why did he desert them. Jesus asked the same question, at the cross. In Job, god answers to all the complaints. Faith thrives when it goes wrong in life. When everything goes great, we tend to slack in our faith. When it goes bad, we turn back to god for help. That's the circle of faith.

 

[Bill Brasky]

The idea of a double album or trilogy is pretty consistent with that legal document having 25 songs and the general idea floated around in this thread that there are around 30ish songs. Intending for there to be a trilogy doesn't mean he had all 40+ songs needed ready. He might have had the bulk of 2-3 albums and the idea of where everything fits in, but still needed to create more songs to fill up a second or third album.

Chinese was 14 songs and 71 minutes. The minimum for an album to be considered an "LP" is 35 minutes. There is no real consistent average, but it's not uncommon for mainstream rock albums to be around 35-40 minutes long. System Of A Down released two albums that were companion pieces, both were under 40 minutes. Hybrid Theory, the biggest selling rock album of 2001 was under 40 minutes. It's not uncommon.

I doubt Axl would have released a sub 40 minute album because everything has to be "epic", but the point is, that list of 25 songs is probably almost 2 hours long in playtime. That's probably two 50 minute albums right there and if the time period of that list was the early 2000s, they were apparently going back to the vault of all the instrumentals or ideas and trying to find more stuff, or revisiting things that weren't on the "A list".

1. Cuban Skies

2. The General (released)

3. Atlas Shrugged (soon to be released)

4. Soul Monster aka Leave Me Alone in my opinion

5. Silkworms (Absurd Released)

6.Thyme is P.RL

7. Going Down (probably never going to be released but leaked)

8. Tonto

9. Monstrocity ( my opinion is Monsters)

10. Nothing (soon to be released)

11. Jackie Chan (Hard School) (released)

12. Perhaps (released)

13. Oh My God

14. 4 Heavens (4 different versions of KOHD) (not likely to be released)

15. Light My Fire (most likely a doors cover song)

16. Seven (Possibly State Of Grace)

17. Quick Song (Possibly Cuban Skies)

18. Zodiac

19. State Of Grace

20. Ides Of March (most likely Circus Maximus)

21. Down By The Ocean (most likely never going released by GNR)

22. Oklahoma/Berlin

23. Eye On You (sampled on Hardschool)

Other titles such as The Rebel, Prom Violence, Curly Shuffle that were on the village disc and Dragon which Rick claimed to have heard are also in the mix.

So 23 to 26 songs with some dupes likely in the list due to name changes.
You add that to the 14 songs on Chinese Democracy you have 36 to 40 songs total which @wasted mentioned in the the thread earlier.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Credit to @Soul Monster @ a-4-d.com

Curly Shuffle

CURLY SHUFFLEAlbum: Unreleased. Written by: Unknown. Musicians: Unknown. Live performances: As far as we know, never played live. Information: Written and recor

www.a-4-d.com

CURLY SHUFFLE
Information:
Written and recorded during the Chinese Democracy era. Instrumental. Likely a working-title that may have changed. A recorded version dated to March 2000 was leaked in 2019 and a tape of a recording dating to November 1999 was shown in a video from UMG's store room

i was reading a Alan Niven article @ a-4-d.com and i don't know if it's just a coincidence but in the article Alan Niven's nickname for Slash is Curly.

2019.03.02 - Rock Talk With Mitch Lafon - Conversation with Alan Niven

On this episode of Westwood One's Rock Talk With Mitch Lafon. New interviews with QUEENSRŸCHE, guitarist DAMON JOHNSON and BUCKCHERRY. The affable Alan Niven co

www.a-4-d.com

Legendary former Guns N’ Roses manager Alan Niven didn’t mince words when it came to late Stone Temple Pilots and Velvet Revolver frontman Scott Weiland, stating that he didn’t “see Scott’s worth” in regards to fronting Velvet Revolver on a new edition of Rock Talk with Mitch Lafon. Alternative Nation reporter Mike Mazzarone transcribed Niven’s comments.

“Well in the interests of transparency and honesty, my partner and I went to see Velvet with Scott when they came through Arizona the first time.

Curly A.K.A. Slash, myself, and Heather went into the hotel bar and this was the first time that Heather had actually met Slash and she was horrified because we sat down at the table and I [inaudible] across the table and the first thing out of my mouth was:

‘What are you thinking!’

Curly goes, ‘I know, I know’. I just didn’t get it at all. I just did not see Scott’s worth.”

Per Zombux https://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/22...ns-a-definitive-collection-of-available-info/

Curly Shuffle (tape with 11th May 1999 date appears at "Universal Music Group Opens its Iron Mountain Tape Vault And You are Invited!"

@EstrangedTWAT

 

[Bill Brasky]

Per Shacklermyrye over at https://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?pid=356112#p356112
Shacklermyrye wrote:
"I noticed you brought the Curly Shuffle DAT in Iron Mountain up over at badapples. The engineer was Critter (Chris) Snyder and the assistant engineer was Jer Blair (Jeremy Blair). Both worked together on Obsolete by Fear Factory the year before this In 98 (when Dave Dominguez was at Rumbo working with Guns) I believe they turned up after he left the project. As far as the name goes I'm sure its just a place holder but there is a song with that name by Jump 'n the Saddle Band as tribute to The Three Stooges, it's such an oddly weird name that i kind of suspect it comes from that.
The mix from The Village comes from March 2000 & will be way more complete than this DAT in that video as that is a 24 track SLAVE. There would have been 24 tracks on the Master as well but Drums (multiple mics) Bass ect would have pushed it over 24 tracks so engineers would link a second 24-track machine to the first one. That DAT in the video is from the second machine and likely contains guitar solo's and overdubs along with whatever electronic synths/ keys ect were added at the time (if any). I believe they used Neve consoles at Rumbo & definitely did at the Village."

Thank you to the guys over at www.gnrevolution.com for helping with this thread.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Per @zombux
"Unknown studio recording by Duff and Izzy - around April 1995 *MISSING* "10 pieces" including Down By The Ocean or Down By The Sea, Machine Gun (at least 3 takes) and Tooth Puller (the latter two dated April 18 1995) *MISSING* [DOES NOT CIRCULATE

occasional studio rehearsals around July-August 1995 (Duff and Matt Sorum mostly during days, while Axl was there in the nights)

Slash's home studio - (since Aug to "late fall 1995" - Slash and Duff tried sessions together with Paul Huge - "Slash musically involved for 2 week initial period")

("The Shadow Company" - parallel studio lineup - Axl, Paul Huge, Dizzy, since Oct 94 to early Feb 95 also Sid Riggs and Krys Baratto, to about Aug 96) The Complex Studio, LA (?) sessions - for example "the folky nonsense" (Jun 96), or Shaq jamming (unclear if Feb 96 or April 1997 but 97 seems way off

Slash returned for work with GNR in July 96 - Unknown sessions at The Complex ("The Compound") - around July to October 1996 (Slash, Duff, Axl, Dizzy, Matt Sorum, Paul Huge - "the next Jackie Chan movie") early sketch of Fall To Pieces *MISSING* [DOES NOT CIRCULATE]

Slash left GNR for good before October 30th 1996"

Duff left in August of 1997.

My take

Jackie Chan aka Hard School
Down By The Ocean
Machine Gun
Tooth Puller
Are from that era

Could Curly Shuffle also be from that era ?
I also question if Oklahoma/Berlin is from that era.
Here's why
According to Chinese Whisperers
1995

"[Oklahoma] was inspired by a court date with ex-wife Erin Everly. 'I was sitting in my litigation with my ex-wife, and it was the day after the bombing, [April 20th, 1995]' Rose remembers with a wince. 'We had a break, and I'm sitting with my attorneys with a sort of smile on my face, more like a nervous thing - it was like, 'Forgive me, people, I'm having trouble taking this seriously.' It's just ironic that we're sitting there and this person is spewing all kinds of things and 168 people just got killed. And this person I'm sitting there with, she don't care. Obliterating me is their goal.'" (Axl, Rolling Stone, 2000)

1998

"As the far as the songs go: 'Oklahoma' was pretty much written by the time they got to the studio. Axl wrote that with inspiration from the Oklahoma City bombing (more as a tribute to those who died, if I'm not mistaken). [...] (Dave Dominguez, Sp1at, 02/07/05)

 

[deelowbrown]

pft.

 

[Bill Brasky]

So this is from Shacklermyrye and me talking over at evo.

Shacklermyrye wrote:
Did a bunch of research on that time a few years back, Definitely would have spoken to Zombux about it.

If you think some of the CD era songs may have started from those sessions then listen to Tonto and tell me what you hear at 1:49

Bill Brasky wrote:
I know it's not Slash but sounds like Slash esq solo to me.

Is that what you're are hearing also ?

Shacklermyrye wrote:
No the sound effect thing that sounds like a dentist drill lol

Bill Brasky wrote:
Now i look foolish but shit happens.

After a second listen yes i can hear the dentist drill esq sound effect.
Nice attention to detail on your part.
Very interesting also !

The fact Hardschool was originally worked on before nugnr era and continued to be worked on during the nugnr lend credence to Tooth Puller being carried over also especially with the dentist drill sound effect.

Honestly the first time anyone has mentioned that to me.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Credit to @wasted for pointing this out to me.
On Rough Mixes CD #2
Track # 6. "ZODIAC 13" (no vox) 11/08/00 (VER.4) 4:38
Which means another version has vox aka vocals.

Here's some of the village sessions cd cover images too. You will notice rough mixes cd#1 are all completed songs and that the only other song that says no vox is Quick Song which also has place holder vox for Quick Song on the same cd.

 

[Borki]

garden of eden! another reference

you're right, all these links are superficial, to the point they're easily missed

Axl is a master of words. In his writings, even his replies on message boards, he speaks in a very cryptic way. I suspect the man weighs every word he speaks. How much more deliberate then, are his actual lyrics.

There is "some" link with christianity, but I've not figured out his intentions. Like you asked, how do you know he wasn't punished. Well, John Lennon said something about being more popular than Jesus, and all I know is he ended up with an emptied gun magazine in his back. You just don't reach world reckognition like the beatles did, and then mock your creator in such a way. Also I never bought John's explanation of his words. To me at least, they sounded like they came from a state of arrogance and power. So far I'd say, Axl is doing pretty well in comparison. Now let me clarify, I don't approve of John Lennon's fate, it's not me that's the judge of everything. At the end of the day it's a matter of belief. But all of this is something that was always clear to me all my life. He mocks Jesus he gets shot. Very few rock artists ever get shot, and all of them have lunatics in their fanbase.

(Axl ALSO wrote a song about this event!)

God works in mysterious ways. If I'm being totally honest I've mocked God many times. Galatians says God is not mocked and a man reaps what he sows and that those who sow to please their flesh will reap destruction from their flesh and those that sow to please the Spirit will reap eternal life. But it doesnt neccessarily mean that everyone who mocks God is going to suffer a public execution (thankfully, cuz I'd be long dead by now). I dont rule out the possibility that the comments Lennon made could have played a part in his death. But I think its beyond my ability to know. The "mockery" that verse is referring to also seems to be moreso about your actions, choices, lifestyle and heart posture rather than specific one off comments of direct mockery.

I defer to the Church when it comes to stuff like this, and as far as I know, all of the major historical Nicene Christian denominations intentionally abstain from interpreting whether or not someone's death or misfortune is a divine punishment for a specific sin they commited. Including when it comes to John Lennon. (The Vatican even complimented The Beatles musical talents and celebrated the 40th anniversary of the White Album in their official newspaper and chalked the Jesus comments up to youthful boasting. This isnt quite the same thing as an official Church position straight from the magisterium, but its also not nothing).

In Proverbs we see general principles on how to live a good life and the benefits that come from it, not just in an eternal sense, but here in this lifetime. But two of the other poetic books, Job and Ecclesiastes, talk about how there are exceptions to those rules. How good things can happen to bad people and bad things can happen to good people. The unfairness of life. Back in the ancient world it was presumed that if you got sick or suffered some horrible misfortune you must have done something to anger a deity and deserved it (like Job's friends assumed) but those books are saying that's not always neccessarily the case. This fallen world is corrupted by sin and governed by demonic forces. There is random suffering and brutality. I do think that Axl has mocked God at various points publically with GNR. But just because Axl wasnt publically executed doesn't mean he hasn't reaped consequences or wont in the future (either in a temporal sense or an eternal sense, or both). He definitely seems to have suffered a lot in his personal life. Idk. When it comes to cosmic justice, its hard to know or make sense of it as a fallen human here within my limited perspective of linear spacetime. I trust that God is compassionate, forgiving and just. And all things will be reconciled to Him. With Guns I just try to enjoy the music even if I don't always understand it or agree with it.

I personally find Axl's forum posts very cringe. But that Madison one is hilarious. Top 5 Axl writings. I gotta say, the absolute worst is when certain GNR fans try to emulate his style of writing. Like Mojo. And half the posters on the old GNR Truth site. Someone should plug Axl's posts into an AI and ask it to respond in his style. Would be funny.

 

[Borki]

pft.

Wait, is this really Deelow?

 

[Borki]

The fact Hardschool was originally worked on before nugnr era and continued to be worked on during the nugnr...

How far back does Hardschool go?

 

[Gordon Comstock]

@Bill Brasky I think it was Sorum who said that by the time he was fired, Axl had a verse for one song and a chorus for another, but almost no other lyrics.
Hardschool originating around 97~ and the Village disc noting "nu Ax" makes me think the verses for that song were probably done shortly before that mix was done, but maybe the chorus had been there for a while?
As far as other carryover songs... Oklahoma lyrics were about an event in 94, Silkworms lyrics (at least partially) date back to 94, it's likely that some 'ideas' carried over but few actual songs.

The 2001 rough mixes disc is interesting. The only instrumentals are Quick Song and Zodiac which seem like they were worked on beyond what we've heard. How far they went, I don't know, but I hope Zodiac was finished because it's one of the best instrumentals.

 

[Borki]

I haven't listened to those instrumentals from the Village sessions in years. Maybe listened once or twice ever.

Do they contain guitar solos and have people been able to distinguish which solos are Robin and which are Bucket? Is there any youtube video or something that compiles the solos only?

 

[Bill Brasky]

@Bill Brasky I think it was Sorum who said that by the time he was fired, Axl had a verse for one song and a chorus for another, but almost no other lyrics.
Hardschool originating around 97~ and the Village disc noting "nu Ax" makes me think the verses for that song were probably done shortly before that mix was done, but maybe the chorus had been there for a while?
As far as other carryover songs... Oklahoma lyrics were about an event in 94, Silkworms lyrics (at least partially) date back to 94, it's likely that some 'ideas' carried over but few actual songs.

The 2001 rough mixes disc is interesting. The only instrumentals are Quick Song and Zodiac which seem like they were worked on beyond what we've heard. How far they went, I don't know, but I hope Zodiac was finished because it's one of the best instrumentals.

Per Chinese Whispers

1996: Chinese Whispers / 1996 / GNR Evolution - Guns N Roses Forum

In August, the full band were scheduled to return to the studio to write and record new songs.

"Duff: We're in [the studio], writing new songs...
Stern: And Axl's into it?
Duff: Yeah, totally. And, actually, today I was going to have to fly back right after this. We were going to start recording for this Jackie Chan movie, the next one." (Duff, Howard Stern Show, 07/25/96)
New Direction

"The songs are really good, and I have a good vibe about it. I wouldn't want to go out and do a bad Guns N' Roses record." (Slash, Kerrang, 09/21/96)

"We have been doing mostly Axl's material." (Slash chat, 10/16/96)

"Even if we don't sell any copy of the next album, I will be very proud of what we did. But I don't worry about it, I know that what we are doing right now is great. [...] We are working on rock songs that last only 4 minutes (laughs). We already did 7 songs and we will write 7 others. [...] It will be a single album with 10 or 12 songs." (Matt, 09/23/96)

Ok so now time for my opinion and insight instead of copy and pasting other people's work.

It's clear songs were instrumentally done by fall 96. 7 songs if we believe Matt Sorum's statements.

We know Axl did vocals in 99, that the The Beavan album (Chinese Democracy) confirmed to have been mixed and mastered in late 1999 or early 2000 by George Marino exist. According to Zombux's https://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/22...ns-a-definitive-collection-of-available-info/

So in 4 years 1996- 2000 time span i imagine Axl did more vocals then just oh my god, live era, afd 99 and the Beaven Version of Chinese Democracy which i believe to be all of village sessions rough mix 1 disc and variety of rough mixes 2, 3 and 4.
The people that have it are more then welcome to correct me !

On Zodiac it's done with vocals.
In the forum chats Axl did he states Zodiac is one of his favorite books.

---

 

[Bill Brasky]

Wait, is this really Deelow?

Yeah, why is that surprising ?
This place isn't the echo chamber some may believe it is.
There all here.

 

[Bill Brasky]

I personally find Axl's forum posts very cringe. But that Madison one is hilarious. Top 5 Axl writings. I gotta say, the absolute worst is when certain GNR fans try to emulate his style of writing. Like Mojo. And half the posters on the old GNR Truth site. Someone should plug Axl's posts into an AI and ask it to respond in his style. Would be funny.

@ROSS TCB is my favorite Axl impersonator.

 

[Borki]

@ROSS TCB is my favorite Axl impersonator.

Now Im even more sure of his identity.