Bill Brasky
Well-known member
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To any Christians
- Thread starter Oldest Goat
- Start date
Bill Brasky
Well-known member
Name the last good Spielberg movie lol
AxlisOld
Well-known member
Super 8 was decent. Certainly not Library of Congress classic but decent.
Bridge of Spies
Super 8 wasn’t a Spielberg movie. J.J. Abrams wrote and directed it.
DOOM 2000
Well-known member
Is it Saving Private Ryan?
AxlisOld
Well-known member
Trumpy Bear
Well-known member
Bill Brasky
Well-known member
That is all a matter of taste, i would say catch me if you can.
Bill Brasky
Well-known member
Borki
Well-known member
Sorry for late reply. I have been away for all of 2026 (and will probably disappear again at some point. That’s my cycle here. Post for a bit and then leave for months). Didn’t realize you @ed me.
I agree with almost everything you said and I’m really happy that Old Goat found Christ. That’s awesome. Who is Old Goat btw? I don’t recognize that username. I’m guessing he changed it.
But something from your post I disagree with is the part about priests and church being irrelevant. I used to hold this same stance. Had kind of an evangelical mindset. But I’ve realized that Christ established a Church - the body of believers around the world. The word in Greek is ekklesia and it means “called out ones” or “assembly”. I used to say I was “spiritual but not religious” because religion has sort of become a dirty word in modernity. But this was basically unheard of in historic Christianity. And there really isn’t a single line of Scripture I’m aware of to justify it. The Bible makes it clear over and over again, that Christianity is a community, a tradition, and an institution.
I am not a stickler for any particular denomination. I believe in what CK Lewis said about “mere Christianity”. (Edit; but there are groups that are so heretical that they remove themselves from the Faith. Like Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Gnostics, etc. Then you also have groups that while still Christian, are not ideal imo, and are in error, but not bad enough to not be considered Christian, because they still hold to core essential dogmatic truths. Like Evangelicals.) But I do think it’s important that people ideally partake in the historic traditional Nicene Church rooted in the apostles, to help nourish their ongoing sanctification. For many many reasons. Following the Bible on your own can get tricky. Because the Bible isn’t a set of instructions or a rule book. It’s a very complicated library of literature that needs to be understood within the context and tradition of the Church who wrote/preserved/canonized it.
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Borki
Well-known member
Your observation reflects real life. One of the astronauts on that mission who was an atheist literally said that when he landed the first thing he did was request a military chaplain and he broke down in tears when he saw the cross on his neck. Idk if he is gonna convert (I think we all have had moments where our spirit is moved in one way or another but then we harden our hearts quick and move on) but at the very least he was deeply effected in that moment and the throne of the Logos (the cross) brought him to tears.
Makes perfect sense. The Bible says that “the heavens declare the glory of God”(in a biblical cosmology the sky and atmosphere are the first heaven, space and the cosmos are the second, and the third is the dwelling place of God beyond what we can imagine). In Western Christian tradition, nature itself is seen as the second book of revelation God gave us.
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Borki
Well-known member
Long books tend to say a lot of things. If youre talking about Ezekiel 23, its not literal. Its an allegory for the spiritual prostitution and adultery of Jerusalem with Egypt. Its talking about the disastrous political alliances Judah made with Egypt. Jerusalem is a prostitute in the allegory (along with her sister who represents Samaria).
Lacerda
Well-known member
if jesus wanted us to conform to a rulebook, he would have given it to us
the most important word he taught us, was love. love one another. thats the ecclesias he was referring to. we are all one.
all the rest is our interpretation. every religion, every church, every sect. its all dust in the wind.
the most important word he taught us, was love. love one another. thats the ecclesias he was referring to. we are all one.
all the rest is our interpretation. every religion, every church, every sect. its all dust in the wind.
Borki
Well-known member
But He absolutely does want us to conform to the moral law. And the moral law was given to Moses and is written on the hearts of all mankind. It acts as a convicting force meant to declare us guilty of sin, and drive us to the foot of the cross.
This is conflating two seperate concepts. The Ekklesia is the Church. The body of Christ. The global congregation of believers.
This is New Age. We don't need to merely rely on our intepretation. We have a vast rich history, a living faith, saints, Church doctors, etc. We have pastoral guidance, discernment and the Holy Spirit. And we have the bride of Christ - the Church. And the promise that "the gates of hell will not prevail against it".
So on what basis do you even believe in Jesus in the first place? How do you know that he taught love? Presumably because you trust the Scriptures written, preserved and canonized by the Church, right? If so, I would then ask, why does your trust in the Church stop there?
He didn't just teach love and leave it at that. Love was the core of His message. To love your God with all your heart and soul, and to love your neighbor as yourself. But He also gave us guidance and moral teaching for the practical application of that love in our daily lives. He taught us, and He taught His apostles, and He sent them His Spirit to teach them further, and He gave them binding apostolic authority, which has been passed down to this day. He didnt just tell us to make the rest up for ourselves by our own intepretation. The human heart is deceptive and beyond understanding.
The Bible says to not give up meeting together in person and to submit to religious leaders and follow the traditions passed down to you. It says to confess to each other, sing psalms together, carry each others burdens, read Scripture out loud in each others presence, pray for each other, confess Christ as Lord, eat the body and blood together, etc (and we do all of these things in the liturgy). It also establishes an ecclessial heirarchy of bishops, priests, deacons, etc. It presents the Church as the bride of Christ. Luke the Evangelist saw fit to write 2 books. The first was his Gospel giving a biography of the Christ. But the second book of his two-part work is the biography of the Church. Acts of the Apostles gives us the story of the birth of the Church at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended on the followers or Christ, and the events that followed, showing how the Church spread around the world through the Apostles and their ministry - as a visible institutional Church that remains to this day. Not a single person in Acts merely has a relationship with Jesus while ignoring the visible institutional Church. Just as Israel before her was a visible divine institution, the Church fulfills the promises to Israel and acts as a divine institution based on faith instead of blood. Where those who are born again of Christ become Abrahams seed by faith.
We see that the Church in Acts convenes the first council - the Council of Jerusalem, which clarifies doctrine and has binding authority on the congregation. We see her authoritatively intepreting and recontextualizing the Jewish understanding of the OT. We see that this Church has a hierarchal structure, where all are equal in inherent value to God - but not all are the same in their function. Paul uses the analogy of different body parts making the whole. The heirarchy is not about superiority or domination. But its a solemn spiritual burden undertaken by those who devote their life to God. And we show our love and humility before God by submitting (not a blind or irrational submission) to their authority. We entrust them with the holy sacraments, liturgical leadership, and pastoral guidance.
After Acts we have 22 Epistles (I count Revelation as an epistle because it is technically a letter to 7 churches, even if its an Apocalypse in its literary genre) written by important members of the church - to other church communities or church members, establishing theological truths, doctrines, pastoral guidances, etc. And liturgy. I mean thats why we have these letters today and the Gospels and Acts. They were copied by church communities around the world and read as Scripture liturgically alongside the Old Testament.
We have always disagreed and debated on matters of orthodoxy and tradition. But I definitely dont doubt your sincerity of faith. And I understand where youre coming from. I emphatically (and respectfully) disagree. I consider you a fellow brother in Christ. I just wanna see all my brothers at dinner with the family. Because the Church nourishes, guides, teaches, rebukes, corrects and humbles us. She is the bride of the Lamb.
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Lacerda
Well-known member
i didnt mean to say, we should leave the rest to our own interpretation. on the contrary. what i meant was, thats what people do. people like to add to the message of jesus. its in human nature to do so. but all of it is dust in the wind.
the food rules and sacrificial rules, im not convinced that has any moral merit. god despises all of that, im sure i read that in the bible. why would the creator of the universe be pleased with dead cows.
jesus his message is actually really simple. my approach is, to read the gospels, his message, and let it speak to the heart. let he who has eyes and ears, etc...
as if, when you die and stand before the throne of god, you would be evaluated on you curriculum with the right church. perdonally i see no sense in there. there is more merit in giving a beggar some money (because what you do for a beggar, yoy do for god himself), than following the right dogma. i cant count how many times jesus judged the scribes, who follow the law more than other people. its what got him on the cross in the first place.
but who am i. i could be all wrong
the food rules and sacrificial rules, im not convinced that has any moral merit. god despises all of that, im sure i read that in the bible. why would the creator of the universe be pleased with dead cows.
jesus his message is actually really simple. my approach is, to read the gospels, his message, and let it speak to the heart. let he who has eyes and ears, etc...
as if, when you die and stand before the throne of god, you would be evaluated on you curriculum with the right church. perdonally i see no sense in there. there is more merit in giving a beggar some money (because what you do for a beggar, yoy do for god himself), than following the right dogma. i cant count how many times jesus judged the scribes, who follow the law more than other people. its what got him on the cross in the first place.
but who am i. i could be all wrong
Borki
Well-known member
Can you give me an example of this happening that you're opposed to?
I dont understand. Are you saying that you think that traditional Christian orthodoxy teaches people to sacrafice animals as part of the Mosaic sacraficial system TODAY? Thats not happening. No Christian group does this. This is the exact opposite of what we believe. Christ IS the Lamb of God. The perfect and final sacrafice. There is no need for any animal sacrifices. We also don't observe Jewish dietary laws. The New Testament is very clear about this.
But it is important to note that God did actually command animal sacrafices and specific dietary laws for the Israel congregation under the Mosaic ceremonial law - which was fulfilled in Christ. In Christian tradition, we view the entire Bible as being about Jesus. And we use an ancient hermeneutical tradition called typology, forged by countless people across the world and throughout time, to view Scripture through a lens that enriches the text and makes it more beautiful than any one person could ever interpret on their own. The sacrificial system ultimately serves as a type that foreshadows and prefigures Jesus, the antitype. God was always looking for a contrite heart as the true sacrifice. But yes, He used his covenant people Israel and the command to sacrafice animals, so that He could show that they couldn't live up to the standards of their Laws, and present the solution - not just to Israel, but the whole world. This is why Jesus is the Lamb of God. Not because the sacrafices never mattered. But because Jesus is our perfect eternal unblemished sin offering. This is why we dont sacrifice animals today. But in a sense we sort of do. Every time we partake in Holy Communion. The Last Supper was a Passover Meal. Christ is the Passover Lamb. The sacraficial system is actually extremely important to understanding WHY and HOW we are saved by a man dying on a pole. It mattered a lot. And we eat the bread and drink the wine in Communion with Christ and each other to remember His death, which was done under the sacrificial system of the Jews. This is why Hebrews says He was an aroma pleasing to the Lord. This is why He is described as a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek. This is why He enters Jerusalem on the day the Passover lamb is chosen by the people. Etc.
It is totally true that you read that God said he despised their sacrafices and religious rituals. But this is where it's extremely helpful to have the Church to guide us and take the entire Bible within context. God commanded the sacrifices to begin with. The reason He said he despised them at certain points, like Amos 5, was not because He despises religious ritual. Its because He despises empty and improper religious ritual. Done merely for the appearence of righteousness, or treating it as a magic trick, or done in a way that is disrespectful or demonic. They were external acts intended to be done to reflect an internal reality of a contrite heart - acts of repentence. If you read Amos in context, it's talking about sacrifices being offered by corrupt priests who abuse the poor, take bribes, dont show any true reverence for God, worship demons, etc. He despises empty and false religion. But he COMMANDS true religion.
But the Bible is more than the the 4 Gospels and the human heart is easily led astray. The earliest Church had no Gospels. But we see in Acts that they still learned directly by being taught the Old Testament, which told them about Jesus in advance (Isaiah 53 for example, has the entire Gospel message summed up perfectly hundreds of years before the incarnation), and by hearing the teachings and traditions of their church leaders who personally witnessed Jesus's ministry or knew those that did. And that chain of tradition continues today. And yeah, while the core message may be simple, those 4 Gospels (and the rest of the Bible) are so rich in content for a lifetime of study. And that study is best done under the guidance of the Church that Christ established, which wrote and canonized those Gospels - and its collective wisdom. Cuz it can make us consider things we never thought of, keeps us humble, and opens up a whole world of ideas and varying viewpoints. And countless other reasons. The core message is simple and anyone can recieve it. But after we recieve it, we grow. We are sanctified. We cooperate with God's grace. And that includes, partaking in his covenant community, gaining wisdom, and applying that wisdom practically in our daily lives, so that we can more effectively do the things that Jesus taught us, and do them together - as part of His body. And we have several examples where Jesus speaks about the Church in "his own words". E.g. Matthew 18:15-20 where he lays out instructions on dealing with sin in the church and speaks of the power of people gathering together in his name.
But this is the opposite of what I said. I said that I am NOT a stickler for a denomination so long as it is not so blatantly heretical that it clearly has no connection to the historic faith. And even then, I think its possible for those people to be saved. (Im a hopeful universalist. Which means I believe its theoretically possible no one goes to hell, and pray that this will be the outcome). I said I believe in CK Lewis "Mere Christianity". No real Christian denomination makes the claim that people cant be saved who belong to a different denomination. And they are all rooted in a shared history shared essential core truths anyways. Also, even within the same denominations, there is plenty of room for disagreement. Its not like everything you believe is a mandated "cirriculum". But yes, it does matter what we believe and it matters that we take part in the Church Christ established and her traditions that have upheld Christianity for 2000 years. No one in the Early Church held to your views (they can only really exist with the luxury of the modern world and the internet). And thank God for that. Cuz Christianity would have died out immediately. Only as an organized, structured, tightly-knit sacramental body - could we survive persecution under the most powerful empire in the world and spread around the globe. And we still have battles to fight. Here. Today. Now. And certainly in the future. The day is coming. Jesus said to be prepared.
You mention that there is more merit in giving a beggar some money than following the right dogma. But its a false dichotomy. Knowing that giving to the poor is a means of loving God IS practicing proper dogma. You just demonstrated why it's so important. (And the Church is the largest charity provider in the world btw). And Jesus didnt judge the scribes for following the Law. He judged them for abusing and misusing the Law.
It does matter that our faith is not only personally meaningful, but also rational, reasonable, internally consistent, evidence based, rooted in a coherent epistimology, etc. Because human reason is a tool from God to understand divine revelation and truth. And God is the ultimate Truth. Our Faith isnt just something we know in our hearts. Its something we practice and grow in. The Church is for more than just knowing the right dogma. I think we have to be careful borrowing the comforting, supernatural conclusions of a historic worldview without being willing to accept the structural and logical foundations required to get there. This is an ancient beautiful faith rooted in a tradition that goes back to the Apostles and Jesus (and Moses and Abraham). And "the gates of hell will not prevail" against us. That means, its gonna be a battle, and its gonna get a little hairy. And we need our troops coordinated, and ready. Cuz there's a Kingdom of God to spread and a gospel to proclaim.
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