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Unreleased Chinese Democracy Era Songs Definitive List & Information

Oh My God is another religious reference.

I'd guess that Kill Your Idols is linked to beware of False Idols?

Like the No Martyr shirt. Axl realized the pressure of fame or being a false idol had killed a lot of rock stars. Lennon was idolized by Chapman until he said something he didn't like.

So I think Axl is saying think for yourself, like in Don't Damn Me - Don't hail me and idolize the ink?

Atlas seems to be about that too. Axl carrying the weight of expectation of GNR fans who worshipped him was too much.
 
Bill Brasky said:
So i asked the guys at Gnr Evolution to join in.

"Shacklermyrye wrote
Threw this together a few months back on Dragon, just a theory on why it may be called that and why it's likely real.
Unrelated but I mention Canoga park in this video & I actually meant Central Park. I later looked into LastFM and found anyone can name a song whatever they want so i wouldn't put any stock in the Dragons Kiss title, but Dragon however is probably real."


it's interesting and well put together @wasted @Gordon Comstock @HGH @gunsntortillas @Rick Grimes
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There are track names not on the list like IRS, Perhaps, Hardschool, The General, Monsters, Soul Monster, State of Grace, Oklahoma?

But Dragon is Shackler's Revenge is most likely.

it's after Scraped was changed from Lies They Tell for the album. So Shackler's existed.
 
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I always assumed rightly or wrongly that THYME was an acronym for something rather than the word thyme, sorta like TWAT.

The only thing that partially fits from titles we know is “My Elvis” on the ME.

I’m probably waaaaaaaay off
 
Gordon Comstock said:
I think the 2nd Brain quote is more sarcastic but people just kinda went with it. I don't see how Circus Maximus fits the 2nd quote but I also don't see how State Of Grace fits it... "Oh my love, can it be..." isn't exactly a blow your face off chorus. Going by the Brain quotes there's no way SOG could be Seven... the demo of SOG is from March 2000 which is when Brain joined, I doubt he brought that in and they completed it that fast. And where would the Ben Hur quotes fit in? Circus Maximus is more likely and fits the timeline better (especially being labeled as Version 1) but again, Seven could be something completely different.

As far as abandoning completed songs with good vocals... the guy let TWAT sit in a vault for a decade before releasing it. Monsters has been rotting in a vault for over 2 decades. Particularly great vocals don't seem to impact what Axl does with the songs. There's a good chance SOG, and other songs we don't even know about, were abandoned.

Agreed about Prostitute though, it's the best song from the CD era.
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I took it as sarcasm from Brain regarding the chorus.

I the we definitely say Ides Of March is Circus Maximus.

Apex-Twin over at evo believes it became Seven. I'm not sure.

State Of Grace being Seven makes sense lyrically to me but i have no factual evidence to back it up. So it will be changed on the next update i do. I will note on the update my opinion my thoughts though.
 
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wasted said:
I would stick with State of Grace being Seven because of the instrumental music is in the same vein as The General and Monsters. It's very drum oriented, hip hop, sound effects, only Brain was doing this kind of work. Oh my love part could be the bridge and the Still remember you name blows your face off vocally.

The Ben Hur quotes would be a dead giveaway. But surely SOG is using a breakbeat. Maybe Seven is on the same disc as the other Brain jams General and Monsters.


In 98 Ides of March was listed, in 99 it's not listed but Circus is listed. The Dizzy loop comment and there's piano on Circus kind of convinces me more its a Dizzy thing.

Cuban Skies probably isn't Quick Song as both are listed in 2003 as separate tracks.
Cuban is instrumental in 99, but gets vocal in 2001. Is mentioned in 03 as finished track. But doesn't make CD tracklist.
There aren't many vocal options left on what it could be.
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Where are you seeing a 2003 track listing ?
 
Gordon Comstock said:
I think the 2nd Brain quote is more sarcastic but people just kinda went with it. I don't see how Circus Maximus fits the 2nd quote but I also don't see how State Of Grace fits it... "Oh my love, can it be..." isn't exactly a blow your face off chorus. Going by the Brain quotes there's no way SOG could be Seven... the demo of SOG is from March 2000 which is when Brain joined, I doubt he brought that in and they completed it that fast. And where would the Ben Hur quotes fit in? Circus Maximus is more likely and fits the timeline better (especially being labeled as Version 1) but again, Seven could be something completely different.

As far as abandoning completed songs with good vocals... the guy let TWAT sit in a vault for a decade before releasing it. Monsters has been rotting in a vault for over 2 decades. Particularly great vocals don't seem to impact what Axl does with the songs. There's a good chance SOG, and other songs we don't even know about, were abandoned.

Agreed about Prostitute though, it's the best song from the CD era.
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Bill Brasky said:
I took it as sarcasm from Brain regarding the chorus.

I the we definitely say Ides Of March is Circus Maximus.

Apex-Twin over at evo believes it became Seven. I'm not sure.

State Of Grace being Seven makes sense lyrically to me but i have no factual evidence to back it up. So it will be changed on the next update i do. I will note on the update my opinion my thoughts though.
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Well Seven isn't Ides Of March aka Circus Maximums
Here's Axl confirming real song titles

A: Ides Of March, Oklahoma, Atlas Shrugged, Oh My God, Silkworms , Down By The Ocean (Izzy), Leave Me Alone, Seven , The General , Thyme , Quick Song , Zodiac Most all titles subject to change w/out warning and r considered working titles. (Axl Rose, chinesedemocracy.com, Dec. 2008)

As you see Seven and Ides Of March both appear.
Mad Men Lol GIF

 
Per @John Bonham
How come some people call you "Mother Goose?"

Chris: That was a nickname I acquired sometime when Buckethead was in GN'R, all his friends had great nicknames, and that name came up for me. I seldom hear it anymore, or I only hear it when I'm around people associated with that era and it always makes me laugh and remember some good times.

Let me ask you about GN'R a little. We used to hear the rumor that Chinese Democracy would release 3 records before release. After all, Chinese Deocracy was released 1 record, as everybody know. Did you have any favorite song that not included in Chinese Democracy?

Chris: Yes, we did have a large collection of songs recorded through the years, and many I don't even remember now! But to think of a favorite song right now as we speak, I would have to say its one called "Beta's Barn."

(secondary) source: https://chinese-democracy.blogspot.com/ … rview.html
 
Bill Brasky said:
Chris: Yes, we did have a large collection of songs recorded through the years, and many I don't even remember now! But to think of a favorite song right now as we speak, I would have to say its one called "Beta's Barn."
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I always thought the lyrics to "Better" were actually about Beta, and the word change was Axl being cheeky

Like how "Hey Jealousy" by Gin Blossoms has been speculated to have been "Hey Chelsea" before they changed it for creative and/or legal reasons
 
Bill Brasky said:
Where are you seeing a 2003 track listing ?
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https://www.reddit.com/r/GunsNRoses/comments/1jyytpn/chinese_democracy_sessions_1992_2007

It's reddit so it's not really trustworthy. But it's a quick condensed overview. The progression seems about right.

In Cuban Skies case seems believable it had a vocal because its on the CD2 list first track.

2003 - Multiple vocals recorded, some re-recorded, fixed even on some existing songs.

'The General' '7'

The album is ready for release.

32 tracks in existence. 28 finished; 4 without vocals yet.

'Chinese Democracy' 'Better' 'Street of Dreams' 'If The World' 'There Was a Time' 'Catcher In The Rye' 'Riad N' The Bedouins' 'Sorry' 'I.R.S.' 'Madagascar' 'This I Love' 'Prostitute'
'Oh My God' 'ABSURD' 'Going Down' 'Hard Skool' 'Perhaps' 'The General' 'Monsters' '7' 'Berlin 51' 'Cuban Skies' 'Perception Reality Life' 'Atlas Shrugged' 'Curly Shuffle' 'This Grave' 'Shackler's Revenge' [instrumental] 'Scraped' [instrumental] 'Going Down' 'Quick Song' [instrumental] 'Zodiac' [instrumental] 'Down By The Ocean'
 
If you ignore The Dizzy loop quote, I'd guess Ides of March (98) became Catcher.
Multiple sources say Catcher was around 98.

But there was a Billboard article interview with Dizzy in 2011 that was still saying Ides of March was a new song that might get released.

Ides of March is something to do with Assassination of Ceasar. So the Assassination of Lennon.

It's all conjecture.
 
wasted said:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GunsNRoses/comments/1jyytpn/chinese_democracy_sessions_1992_2007

It's reddit so it's not really trustworthy. But it's a quick condensed overview. The progression seems about right.

In Cuban Skies case seems believable it had a vocal because its on the CD2 list first track.

2003 - Multiple vocals recorded, some re-recorded, fixed even on some existing songs.

'The General' '7'

The album is ready for release.

32 tracks in existence. 28 finished; 4 without vocals yet.

'Chinese Democracy' 'Better' 'Street of Dreams' 'If The World' 'There Was a Time' 'Catcher In The Rye' 'Riad N' The Bedouins' 'Sorry' 'I.R.S.' 'Madagascar' 'This I Love' 'Prostitute'
'Oh My God' 'ABSURD' 'Going Down' 'Hard Skool' 'Perhaps' 'The General' 'Monsters' '7' 'Berlin 51' 'Cuban Skies' 'Perception Reality Life' 'Atlas Shrugged' 'Curly Shuffle' 'This Grave' 'Shackler's Revenge' [instrumental] 'Scraped' [instrumental] 'Going Down' 'Quick Song' [instrumental] 'Zodiac' [instrumental] 'Down By The Ocean'
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I forget his username on mygnr and gnfnr but that's some zoomer who was way too enthusiastic about the Village leaks lol. Used to posts lists like that all the time... he had a few names but Cuban Skies Dummy might have been one? Because he was convinced Dummy became Cuban Skies. And that Seven was a mash up of Circus Maximus and D Tune, maybe 1-2 other songs, he used to send people his 'version' of it. If that's the same person, don't take his lists seriously.
 
Gordon Comstock said:
I forget his username on mygnr and gnfnr but that's some zoomer who was way too enthusiastic about the Village leaks lol. Used to posts lists like that all the time... he had a few names but Cuban Skies Dummy might have been one? Because he was convinced Dummy became Cuban Skies. And that Seven was a mash up of Circus Maximus and D Tune, maybe 1-2 other songs, he used to send people his 'version' of it. If that's the same person, don't take his lists seriously.
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I don't take it seriously as fact but you can see the progression of the tracklists.

Dummy is almost the only option left for Cuban Skies from the tracks we know about.
Ides is Maximus.
SOG is Seven.

If Cuban Skies is from 98 it could change to Dummy on LL. It rules out Cuban Skies being Quick Song.

But why is it then back to Cuban Skies on the CD2 list?

Dummy at least has a spanish/cuban vibe. But imagining it as a song with a vocal is hard.
 
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Ides is 98, Brain joined after that and Seven comes from one of his crazy jam sessions.

Ides came from a Dizzy loop.
Seven is Brain track.

Pretty convinced SOG has the same musical elements as The General and Monsters. I could even see lyrically SOG being sarcastically about the religious views of his abusers. Rationalizing on verses, then unleashing rage on chorus. Axl still remembers his real name.
 
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The idea of a double album or trilogy is pretty consistent with that legal document having 25 songs and the general idea floated around in this thread that there are around 30ish songs. Intending for there to be a trilogy doesn't mean he had all 40+ songs needed ready. He might have had the bulk of 2-3 albums and the idea of where everything fits in, but still needed to create more songs to fill up a second or third album.

Chinese was 14 songs and 71 minutes. The minimum for an album to be considered an "LP" is 35 minutes. There is no real consistent average, but it's not uncommon for mainstream rock albums to be around 35-40 minutes long. System Of A Down released two albums that were companion pieces, both were under 40 minutes. Hybrid Theory, the biggest selling rock album of 2001 was under 40 minutes. It's not uncommon.

I doubt Axl would have released a sub 40 minute album because everything has to be "epic", but the point is, that list of 25 songs is probably almost 2 hours long in playtime. That's probably two 50 minute albums right there and if the time period of that list was the early 2000s, they were apparently going back to the vault of all the instrumentals or ideas and trying to find more stuff, or revisiting things that weren't on the "A list".
 
the two illusions represent heaven (UYI II) and hell (UYI I)

there's knocking on heaven's door, as opposed to right next door to hell

I is more agressive, romanticising the perfect crime, while UYI advocates that no one needs a civil war

I has a red themed cover (fire) while II has a blue theme (the clouds, the sky)

I guess I need to listen to these two albums again and pay attention to more clues
 
gunsntortillas said:
The idea of a double album or trilogy is pretty consistent with that legal document having 25 songs and the general idea floated around in this thread that there are around 30ish songs. Intending for there to be a trilogy doesn't mean he had all 40+ songs needed ready. He might have had the bulk of 2-3 albums and the idea of where everything fits in, but still needed to create more songs to fill up a second or third album.

Chinese was 14 songs and 71 minutes. The minimum for an album to be considered an "LP" is 35 minutes. There is no real consistent average, but it's not uncommon for mainstream rock albums to be around 35-40 minutes long. System Of A Down released two albums that were companion pieces, both were under 40 minutes. Hybrid Theory, the biggest selling rock album of 2001 was under 40 minutes. It's not uncommon.

I doubt Axl would have released a sub 40 minute album because everything has to be "epic", but the point is, that list of 25 songs is probably almost 2 hours long in playtime. That's probably two 50 minute albums right there and if the time period of that list was the early 2000s, they were apparently going back to the vault of all the instrumentals or ideas and trying to find more stuff, or revisiting things that weren't on the "A list".
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I would say 2 cds, 4 records.
CD is 2 records.
GNR records seem have about 7 songs on them when you look at CD & UYI.

There easily enough tracks for another 14 track cd, another 2 records.

We know 11 tracks already:
HS, Absurd, Perhaps, The General, Monsters, Atlas, Nothing
PRL, Oklahoma, Soul Monster, Seven/State of Grace
Then you need 3 more tracks
Oh My God, Cuban Skies, Circus Maximus?

That's another 14 track cd easily. Another 2 records.

Trilogy of cds was not out of the question. Not every song has to be a single.
Quick Song could easily be the first song on a cd, before going into Oklahoma. You can put instrumentals at the end of an album. Do a cover for each cd.

But it looks like they are 3 tracks away from a 14 track cd.
 
Where does the State of Grace/Seven thing come from?

When I listen to State of Grace I can always hear parts of Oh My God in it musically. The part which starts with “When do you think you can tell me?
How long do you think I can wait?” Sounds very very similar to the refrain in oh my god which starts with “Ooh, if it opens your eyes.”

To my ear anyway….
 
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