Unreleased Chinese Democracy Era Songs Definitive List & Information

[Lacerda]

I'm not an expert on unreleased chinese outtakes, at all. All the discussion about those song names, goes way over my head.

having said that, it's crystal clear to me that "state of grace", coupled with the lyrics, 100 % has a christian foundation.

grace, in a religous way, refers to the "undeserved", "unmerited" favour of a higher power, or god. grace is a free and undeserved gift of divine help, love and forgiveness that is not earned through good deeds but only through god's will

does Axl think us fans don't deserve a new album, but he'll give us new music anyway, because he loves us regardless?

it would add an extra layer to the toungue in cheek, but at the same time deeply introspective lyrics

Axl is no stranger to this kind of stuff, nor is he a stranger to christian symbolism. "bless them (his enemies), that they might grow old" may be one of the most important lessons of Jesus during the sermon on the mount. To pray for your enemies, because if you only love your friends what achievment would that be?

the, the jesus t shirt, "kill your idols". What was that all about. I don't think he used that imagery in a derogatory way. No one mocks jesus / god and goes unpunished. So what did he mean with it? Who knows.

 

[Borki]

I'm not an expert on unreleased chinese outtakes, at all. All the discussion about those song names, goes way over my head.

having said that, it's crystal clear to me that "state of grace", coupled with the lyrics, 100 % has a christian foundation.

grace, in a religous way, refers to the "undeserved", "unmerited" favour of a higher power, or god. grace is a free and undeserved gift of divine help, love and forgiveness that is not earned through good deeds but only through god's will

does Axl think us fans don't deserve a new album, but he'll give us new music anyway, because he loves us regardless?

it would add an extra layer to the toungue in cheek, but at the same time deeply introspective lyrics

Axl is no stranger to this kind of stuff, nor is he a stranger to christian symbolism. "bless them (his enemies), that they might grow old" may be one of the most important lessons of Jesus during the sermon on the mount. To pray for your enemies, because if you only love your friends what achievment would that be?

the, the jesus t shirt, "kill your idols". What was that all about. I don't think he used that imagery in a derogatory way. No one mocks jesus / god and goes unpunished. So what did he mean with it? Who knows.

How do you know he wasnt punished?

The lyrics to State of Grace only seem superficially religious to me. They don't really seem to be about Jesus at all at the core. Just another song about relationships that uses religious themes in a poetic way, to tell a story about a boy and a girl and their drama.

He's not talking about divine grace that is truly unmerrited and undeserved. My read of the lyrics is that he's patting himself on the back for putting up with someone (Stephanie?) and patronizing them about how their behavior is just part of the human condition. And I dont see much more there. Certainly nothing substantive about Jesus. I agree that he's referencing religious themes, but only for allegorical purposes.

Axl uses vaguely religious themes all the time. 3 out of 4 GNR album covers have religious imagery. Countless songs. And thats pretty normal for rock bands or mainstream music in general. But its usually little more than a pop culture reference. (Metallica is a good exception to this. I recently found out James Hetfield has gone to Bible studies and it didnt surprise me to learn that.) I think your previous post was deeper than the actual lyrics.

Maybe it could also be an intentional ironic reversal like Garden of Eden. That song is all about how we are lost in the Garden of Eden but the lyrics seem to be subversive. The entire song is about the corrupt nature of the world in its fallen state. The Garden of Eden is clearly the one place that Axl can't be singing about. Maybe State of Grace has a similar irony to it and the song is also about the opposite of its namesake. He says he's falling out of grace with this mystery person, but the rest of the lyrics indicate there was never any grace given at all and paint the person in a bad light.

Also, grace is a precursor to repentence in Christianity. And repentence is unconditional surrender in your cosmic court case. Fully admitting that you simply aren't good enough as you are and that your works are not sufficient to save you and bring you into some magical fairy land in the sky like every other religion in the world teaches. It is the admission that the wages of sin are death and you have earned your wages. You have broken the moral law and the consequences are serious. Now a debt must be paid. So you turn yourself in before the Judge and miraculously....the debt is paid. On the cross. By God Himself. The God who suffers with us. The response to grace is faith and that is how a Christian is saved, but in cooperating with that grace comes repentence and contrition. And the lyrics to State of Grace specifically say "I never said I was sorry". Which again leads me to believe the song is ironic. Sarcastic.

Jmo. The lyrics are cryptic enough that its not easy to tell exactly what the intent is.

 

[Bill Brasky]

So i asked the guys at Gnr Evolution to join in.

"Shacklermyrye wrote
Threw this together a few months back on Dragon, just a theory on why it may be called that and why it's likely real.

Unrelated but I mention Canoga park in this video & I actually meant Central Park. I later looked into LastFM and found anyone can name a song whatever they want so i wouldn't put any stock in the Dragons Kiss title, but Dragon however is probably real."


it's interesting and well put together @wasted @Gordon Comstock @HGH @gunsntortillas @Rick Grimes

 

[Borki]

So i asked the guys at Gnr Evolution to join in.

"Shacklermyrye wrote
Threw this together a few months back on Dragon, just a theory on why it may be called that and why it's likely real.

Unrelated but I mention Canoga park in this video & I actually meant Central Park. I later looked into LastFM and found anyone can name a song whatever they want so i wouldn't put any stock in the Dragons Kiss title, but Dragon however is probably real."


it's interesting and well put together @wasted @Gordon Comstock @HGH @gunsntortillas @Rick Grimes

What is "All I Ever Wanted"?

 

[Bill Brasky]

What is "All I Ever Wanted"?

Yeah i noticed that too ?

 

[Borki]

Yeah i noticed that too ?

I feel like I've heard of it before but I cant put my finger on it.

 

[Bill Brasky]

I feel like I've heard of it before but I cant put my finger on it.

Same. Thought it was a fake if i remember correctly.

 

[gunsntortillas]

All I Ever Wanted might be an early title for Better, which was titled Three Dollar Pyramid as an instrumental.

"All I Ever Wanted" is a line prominently featured in the lyrics of Better.

 

[gunsntortillas]

I don't remember the timeline of the leaks, but I don't think we ever heard of the title Better before it leaked. I am going off memory, but I think it was added to the set list after leaking.

The simple theory is that Axl could have changed the name sometime between that paper and the song leaking in 05 or 06.

The other one is that it was never called Better, and whoever had the leak assumed that was what it was called or the file that name because they didn't know the title. So we all started calling it Better, and Axl liked that name...Better. So it stuck.

 

[Borki]

All I Ever Wanted might be an early title for Better, which was titled Three Dollar Pyramid as an instrumental.

"All I Ever Wanted" is a line prominently featured in the lyrics of Better.

That could be it. Though technically the line is "all that I wanted" which is slightly different than "all I ever wanted".

I dont see Better elsewhere on that list though so you might be right.

 

[Gordon Comstock]

Seven

SEVENAlbum: Unreleased. Written by: Unknown. Musicians: Unknown. Live performances: Never played live. Information: Written and recorded during the Chinese Demo

www.a-4-d.com

A quote from Brain
"You know, this was like building up to that show [House of Blues]. We were supposed to – well, not supposed to, but everybody was like, “Hey, if anybody’s got songs and shit, you can bring them in”. [...] Extrakd [Steve Freeman] and Mirv [Marc Haggard] and I, when I wasn’t doing Guns stuff, we’d just jam in my living room type of thing. You know, we had, like, a ProTools setup and we were jamming, and we were trying to come up with songs for Guns. [...] We were writing all these crazy songs to try to turn in and these were coming from, like, you know, Extrakd is an old school dj type – he’s a bass player, but he loves old school break beats and, you know, cratedigger type of guy – and so this shit we were putting together was crazy. You know, we were just kind of going like, “Okay, what samples should we find for Axl?” Like, “Well, he’s kind of like Julius Caesar”, so we were sampling Julius Caesar, looking for albums, you know, and old school crazy shit. And I think we sampled, like, Ben Hur and chopped it up and cut it up, and that became a jam called “Seven” – I think we called it “Seven”. And I remember bringing that to the studio to have – I think Roy Thomas Baker was producing at that point and, you know, we’d be playing the stuff and he’d be in."
Appetite for Distortion, March

Now that would make it seem like Seven is Circus Maximus which widely believed to Ides Of March.

Here's another Brain qoute regarding Seven
"ITS AN TIMELESS BALLAD WITH A BLOW YOUR FACE OFF CHORUS AND A SUCK YOUR BALL SACK BRIDGE!!!!!
Appetite for Discussion, August 18, 2010"

Here's Circus Maximus

My ears don't hear how that instrumental can match Brain's second quote.

Now am i trying to force State Of Grace into being another song due to my bias? Possible, I would just be shocked that in my opinion one of Axl's best vocals on a song post 1993 would be abandoned. Especially due to the fact the song is complete.

I remember saying Circus Maximus was Seven back in 2019 like many others were saying. I changed my opinion 4 times now on what State Of Grace is when i read the lyrics and compared to the title State Of Grace @Lacerda did had a amazing post breaking down the lyrics and there relation to a state of grace in a religious way. I thought Axl may have had a moment of genius songwriting.

To me Axl was still very capable of being a great songwriter, the example i would give is Prostitute.

This all the information i have found so far on Seven. I will adjust the next update accordingly if that you guys believe to be more accurate.
The gentleman at evo have a old thread https://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?id=15026
The poster apex-twin who is very knowledgeable posted
What if,

Ides of March (~98) = Circus Maximus (~00) = VII (~02-)?

I think the 2nd Brain quote is more sarcastic but people just kinda went with it. I don't see how Circus Maximus fits the 2nd quote but I also don't see how State Of Grace fits it... "Oh my love, can it be..." isn't exactly a blow your face off chorus. Going by the Brain quotes there's no way SOG could be Seven... the demo of SOG is from March 2000 which is when Brain joined, I doubt he brought that in and they completed it that fast. And where would the Ben Hur quotes fit in? Circus Maximus is more likely and fits the timeline better (especially being labeled as Version 1) but again, Seven could be something completely different.

As far as abandoning completed songs with good vocals... the guy let TWAT sit in a vault for a decade before releasing it. Monsters has been rotting in a vault for over 2 decades. Particularly great vocals don't seem to impact what Axl does with the songs. There's a good chance SOG, and other songs we don't even know about, were abandoned.

Agreed about Prostitute though, it's the best song from the CD era.

 

[Borki]

Prostitute is one of the best GNR songs ever. From any era. Second only to Estranged in my book.

 

[IRANATAN]

Prositite is one of the best GNR songs ever. From any era. Second only to Estranged in my book.

Prostitute has too much ice and not enough fire. It is alright though. I don’t mind it. Is the two minute fade-out really necessary or was it planned out that way since it was the last track on the album? Axl’s swan song when it comes to albums not posthumously released.

 

[Gordon Comstock]

Prostitute was one of the first songs he wrote for CD but I think it was always planned to be the closing song.

I'd rank it somewhere in the top 5 overall, it's up there with Coma and Estranged.

 

[Borki]

Prostitute has too much ice and not enough fire. It is alright though. I don’t mind it. Is the two minute fade-out really necessary or was it planned out that way since it was the last track on the album? Axl’s swan song when it comes to albums not posthumously released.

Funny cuz iirc that's how Sebastian Bach described it before we ever heard the song. "Ice and fire". Or maybe Im thinking of a different song.

I prefer the demo versions. "New Song #2". People werent even sure it was Prostitute when they first heard it. Trying to decipher if Axl used the word prostitute in the lyrics.

I actually really like the way the current band plays the outro. And the way Melissa does the backing vocals at 2:19 and 3:49 in this performance from a couple years ago. Has she ever done this any other show? I haven't heard it before or since (though I haven't checked them all) but the harmonies sound awesome. And that outro with Dizzy and Slash is pretty.

 

[IRANATAN]

Prostitute was one of the first songs he wrote for CD but I think it was always planned to be the closing song.

I'd rank it somewhere in the top 5 overall, it's up there with Coma and Estranged.

Wow. You guys really like it! I thought at first you said it was top 5 overall on Chinese Democracy, but then I read what came after the apostrophe. I like Chinese Democracy (album, not the song), but with the quality of songs on CD it suffers from being a one of one and not a one of many. There is no Jungle or You Could Be Mine. And it certainly doesn’t have “many” or any songs as “good as November Rain” on it, although The Blues was damn good; the one from Rick’s Picks, not the one from Chinese called Street of Dreams.

 

[Gordon Comstock]

Funny cuz iirc that's how Sebastian Bach described it before we ever heard the song. "Ice and fire". Or maybe Im thinking of a different song.

I prefer the demo versions. "New Song #2". People werent even sure it was Prostitute when they first heard it. Trying to decipher if Axl used the word prostitute in the lyrics.

I actually really like the way the current band plays the outro. And the way Melissa does the backing vocals at 2:19 and 3:49 in this performance from a couple years ago. Has she ever done this any other show? I haven't heard it before or since (though I haven't checked them all) but the harmonies sound awesome. And that outro with Dizzy and Slash is pretty.

The fire and ice description came long before Baz was talking about the songs. I think it was from the 2000(?) Rolling Stone article that also mentioned Oklahoma.

Prostitute was probably the 'least butchered' song on the album... even that version sounds great. The Antiquiet leak (New Song #2) is great too though... I definitely prefer the Antiquiet leak of TWAT over the album version.

Wow. You guys really like it! I thought at first you said it was top 5 overall on Chinese Democracy, but then I read what came after the apostrophe. I like Chinese Democracy (album, not the song), but with the quality of songs on CD it suffers from being a one of one and not a one of many. There is no Jungle or You Could Be Mine. And it certainly doesn’t have “many” or any songs as “good as November Rain” on it, although The Blues was damn good; the one from Rick’s Picks, not the one from Chinese called Street of Dreams.

The more anthemic moments on CD, like the chorus on Shacklers or Scraped, or even Hardschool, don't hit like WTTJ... it just wasn't that band and I can't blame them for not recapturing that edge.

But even if it doesn't sound like classic GNR, Prostitute is a great song that easily holds its own among the classics imo.

 

[Borki]

Prostitute and TWAT have always been beloved songs by the online hardcore GNR fanbase.

CD as an album wasnt really going for a Jungle or a YCBM. Maybe the title track and Better are the only attempts at anything like that. And CD is actually a great song. The way the pre-chorus kinda fakes you out and is actually the chorus. Josh Freese should write more songs with Axl. If CD and Hardschool were released in the 90s they could have been big. For a guy largely known as the ultimate modern session drummer, his songwriting style really worked well with Guns.

For me CD is the my favorite GNR album even if the versions of the songs we got are inferior to demos and live renditions. UYI would be my favorite album if it was one album with all the best songs. The UYIs are GNR at their best and GNR at their worst. AFD is of course a classic, but for me it doesn't have the same replay value. The songs kick ass and its consistent, but it doesnt reach the same heights of UYI and CD when they're at their best.

 

[wasted]

Seven

SEVENAlbum: Unreleased. Written by: Unknown. Musicians: Unknown. Live performances: Never played live. Information: Written and recorded during the Chinese Demo

www.a-4-d.com

A quote from Brain
"You know, this was like building up to that show [House of Blues]. We were supposed to – well, not supposed to, but everybody was like, “Hey, if anybody’s got songs and shit, you can bring them in”. [...] Extrakd [Steve Freeman] and Mirv [Marc Haggard] and I, when I wasn’t doing Guns stuff, we’d just jam in my living room type of thing. You know, we had, like, a ProTools setup and we were jamming, and we were trying to come up with songs for Guns. [...] We were writing all these crazy songs to try to turn in and these were coming from, like, you know, Extrakd is an old school dj type – he’s a bass player, but he loves old school break beats and, you know, cratedigger type of guy – and so this shit we were putting together was crazy. You know, we were just kind of going like, “Okay, what samples should we find for Axl?” Like, “Well, he’s kind of like Julius Caesar”, so we were sampling Julius Caesar, looking for albums, you know, and old school crazy shit. And I think we sampled, like, Ben Hur and chopped it up and cut it up, and that became a jam called “Seven” – I think we called it “Seven”. And I remember bringing that to the studio to have – I think Roy Thomas Baker was producing at that point and, you know, we’d be playing the stuff and he’d be in."
Appetite for Distortion, March

Now that would make it seem like Seven is Circus Maximus which widely believed to Ides Of March.

Here's another Brain qoute regarding Seven
"ITS AN TIMELESS BALLAD WITH A BLOW YOUR FACE OFF CHORUS AND A SUCK YOUR BALL SACK BRIDGE!!!!!
Appetite for Discussion, August 18, 2010"

Here's Circus Maximus

My ears don't hear how that instrumental can match Brain's second quote.

Now am i trying to force State Of Grace into being another song due to my bias? Possible, I would just be shocked that in my opinion one of Axl's best vocals on a song post 1993 would be abandoned. Especially due to the fact the song is complete.

I remember saying Circus Maximus was Seven back in 2019 like many others were saying. I changed my opinion 4 times now on what State Of Grace is when i read the lyrics and compared to the title State Of Grace @Lacerda did had a amazing post breaking down the lyrics and there relation to a state of grace in a religious way. I thought Axl may have had a moment of genius songwriting.

To me Axl was still very capable of being a great songwriter, the example i would give is Prostitute.

This all the information i have found so far on Seven. I will adjust the next update accordingly if that you guys believe to be more accurate.
The gentleman at evo have a old thread https://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?id=15026
The poster apex-twin who is very knowledgeable posted
What if,

Ides of March (~98) = Circus Maximus (~00) = VII (~02-)?

I would stick with State of Grace being Seven because of the instrumental music is in the same vein as The General and Monsters. It's very drum oriented, hip hop, sound effects, only Brain was doing this kind of work. Oh my love part could be the bridge and the Still remember you name blows your face off vocally.

The Ben Hur quotes would be a dead giveaway. But surely SOG is using a breakbeat. Maybe Seven is on the same disc as the other Brain jams General and Monsters.


In 98 Ides of March was listed, in 99 it's not listed but Circus is listed. The Dizzy loop comment and there's piano on Circus kind of convinces me more its a Dizzy thing.

Cuban Skies probably isn't Quick Song as both are listed in 2003 as separate tracks.
Cuban is instrumental in 99, but gets vocal in 2001. Is mentioned in 03 as finished track. But doesn't make CD tracklist.
There aren't many vocal options left on what it could be.

 

[Lacerda]

How do you know he wasnt punished?

The lyrics to State of Grace only seem superficially religious to me. They don't really seem to be about Jesus at all at the core. Just another song about relationships that uses religious themes in a poetic way, to tell a story about a boy and a girl and their drama.

He's not talking about divine grace that is truly unmerrited and undeserved. My read of the lyrics is that he's patting himself on the back for putting up with someone (Stephanie?) and patronizing them about how their behavior is just part of the human condition. And I dont see much more there. Certainly nothing substantive about Jesus. I agree that he's referencing religious themes, but only for allegorical purposes.

Axl uses vaguely religious themes all the time. 3 out of 4 GNR album covers have religious imagery. Countless songs. And thats pretty normal for rock bands or mainstream music in general. But its usually little more than a pop culture reference. (Metallica is a good exception to this. I recently found out James Hetfield has gone to Bible studies and it didnt surprise me to learn that.) I think your previous post was deeper than the actual lyrics.

Maybe it could also be an intentional ironic reversal like Garden of Eden. That song is all about how we are lost in the Garden of Eden but the lyrics seem to be subversive. The entire song is about the corrupt nature of the world in its fallen state. The Garden of Eden is clearly the one place that Axl can't be singing about. Maybe State of Grace has a similar irony to it and the song is also about the opposite of its namesake. He says he's falling out of grace with this mystery person, but the rest of the lyrics indicate there was never any grace given at all and paint the person in a bad light.

Also, grace is a precursor to repentence in Christianity. And repentence is unconditional surrender in your cosmic court case. Fully admitting that you simply aren't good enough as you are and that your works are not sufficient to save you and bring you into some magical fairy land in the sky like every other religion in the world teaches. It is the admission that the wages of sin are death and you have earned your wages. You have broken the moral law and the consequences are serious. Now a debt must be paid. So you turn yourself in before the Judge and miraculously....the debt is paid. On the cross. By God Himself. The God who suffers with us. The response to grace is faith and that is how a Christian is saved, but in cooperating with that grace comes repentence and contrition. And the lyrics to State of Grace specifically say "I never said I was sorry". Which again leads me to believe the song is ironic. Sarcastic.

Jmo. The lyrics are cryptic enough that its not easy to tell exactly what the intent is.

garden of eden! another reference

you're right, all these links are superficial, to the point they're easily missed

Axl is a master of words. In his writings, even his replies on message boards, he speaks in a very cryptic way. I suspect the man weighs every word he speaks. How much more deliberate then, are his actual lyrics.

There is "some" link with christianity, but I've not figured out his intentions. Like you asked, how do you know he wasn't punished. Well, John Lennon said something about being more popular than Jesus, and all I know is he ended up with an emptied gun magazine in his back. You just don't reach world reckognition like the beatles did, and then mock your creator in such a way. Also I never bought John's explanation of his words. To me at least, they sounded like they came from a state of arrogance and power. So far I'd say, Axl is doing pretty well in comparison. Now let me clarify, I don't approve of John Lennon's fate, it's not me that's the judge of everything. At the end of the day it's a matter of belief. But all of this is something that was always clear to me all my life. He mocks Jesus he gets shot. Very few rock artists ever get shot, and all of them have lunatics in their fanbase.

(Axl ALSO wrote a song about this event!)